Dumb — Nirvana
I’m not like them
But I can pretend
In my ongoing, yet unintentional, campaign to obtain realtor hate mail, I would like to quiz you today. MalibuRenter conceived of this post, and he did all of the research — basically, he wrote it, and I got to add the snarky comments. Get something to write on and record your answers to the following questions, the complete questions and answers are below the fold:
{book}
Are You Smarter Than a Real Estate Agent?
1. Looking at the long history of US home prices adjusted for inflation (1890 to 2008), how long has it historically taken for US home prices to double (for the same type and size of house in the same location)? ___5-10 years, ___10-20 years, ___20-50 years, ___51-80 years
2. Adjusted for inflation, had real estate prices ever declined nationally before 2007? ___yes, ___no.
3. Can the value of a home drop so much that it has to be given away in order to find a new owner?
4. What portion of US homeowners take the mortgage interest deduction? ___under 30%, ___30-40%, __40-50%, __50-60%, __60-70%, ___over 70%
5. Assume a couple purchases a home at the US median home price of $200,000 (as of 3rd quarter 2008), puts 10% down, and gets a $180,000 30 year fixed rate loan at 6% interest. Assume they are in the 25% tax bracket. If they have no other itemized deductions, about how much is the mortgage interest deduction worth to them? ___$12,000 ___$10,800 ___$3,000 ___$2,592 ___Zero.
6. If overall inflation is 3% per year (with similar rates of inflation for home prices, maintenance, and property taxes), buying a house with a fixed rate mortgage means that the cost of living in that house will ____ stay the same for 30 years, ____rise by 1-3% per year, _____rise by 3%+ per year?
7. Through 12/31/05 (near the peak of the housing bubble), which investment had the highest return over the past 100 years? ____stocks (Dow/S&P 500), ____high grade bonds, ____ single family homes
8. Do children of renters and homeowners living in adjacent homes/condos typically attend different public schools? ___yes, no
9. If a stockbroker or investment advisor knowingly made misleading statements about historic returns on an investment to a potential investor, what would happen?
10. If a realtor (or the National Association of Realtors) made misleading statements about real estate, what would happen?
11. Which of the following groups files for bankruptcy most often, and is most likely to lose a home through foreclosure?
___Single men, ___Single women, ___Couples with no children, ___ Couples with children
12. If you have a 30 year fixed rate loan at 6% interest, how much of the principal will you have paid off after 15 years? __under 25%, __25-35%, __35-45%, __45-55%, __over 55%.
13. Does taking a home equity loan or refinancing for a higher amount make it more likely you will be foreclosed on? __ Yes, __No
14. In 2007, CA had 13.2 million houses, condos, and apartments. How many people in CA had real estate licenses? ___under 100,000; ___200,000-300,000; ___300,000-400,000; ___400,000-500,000; ___500,000-600,000; ___over 600,000.
I’m having fun
I think I’m dumb
Or Maybe just happy
For those of you who do not want to relive your school test nightmares, I have a property for you to look at.
Income Requirement: $152,487
Downpayment Needed: $121,990
Monthly Equity Burn: $5,082
Purchase Price: $495,500
Purchase Date: 7/22/2004
Address: 145 Danbrook, Irvine, CA 92603
Beds: | 2 |
Baths: | 3 |
Sq. Ft.: | 1,400 |
$/Sq. Ft.: | $436 |
Lot Size: | – |
Property Type: | Condominium |
Style: | Other, Tuscan |
Year Built: | 2004 |
Stories: | 3+ |
Floor: | 3 |
View: | Park or Green Belt |
Area: | Turtle Ridge |
County: | Orange |
MLS#: | P518047 |
Source: | SoCalMLS |
Status: | Active |
On Redfin: | 959 days |
Unsold in 90+ days
|
CABINETS, TUSCAN-STYLE KITCHEN COUNTER TOPS, BLACK APPLIANCES,
STAINLESS STEEL REFRIGERATOR(included), CUSTOM CABINETS, A/C, LARGE TWO
CAR GARAGE. STACK WASHER/DRYER(included). LOTS OF STORAGE. COMPUTER
INTERNET OFFICE AREA. MICROWAVE OVEN. TWO PATIO DECKS. NEWPORT COAST
SHOPPING.BEACH COUPLE MILES AWAY. OWNER MOVING OUT OF AREA(MOTIVATED).
Owner is motivated? After 959 days on the market, I don’t feel a big sense of urgency here.
This property was purchased on 7/22/2004 for $495,000. The owner used a $320,000 first mortgage, and a $175,000 downpayment.
Check out this listing price history. At one time this woman was asking $804,995. LOL! She probably deserved that $310,000 profit after owning it for two years.
Date | Event | Price | Appreciation | Source |
---|---|---|---|---|
Jan 19, 2009 | Price Changed | $609,950 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
Jan 06, 2009 | Price Changed | $675,000 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
Jan 03, 2008 | Price Changed | $714,000 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
Apr 14, 2007 | Price Changed | $748,900 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
Feb 11, 2007 | Price Changed | $794,900 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
Jun 05, 2006 | Listed | $804,995 | — | SoCalMLS #P518047 |
This property is still grossly overpriced even after all these reductions. Most Irvine neighborhoods are at or below 2004 pricing, but this property is supposed to be 25% higher? Oh yea, it is Turtle Ridge…
{book}
Are You Smarter Than a Real Estate Agent?
1. Looking at the long history of US home prices adjusted for inflation (1890 to 2008), how long has it historically taken for US home prices to double (for the same type and size of house in the same location)? ___5-10 years, ___10-20 years, ___20-50 years, ___51-80 years
A. 51-80 years. From 1890 to 2000 this had never occurred, even if you purchased at the bottom and sold at the top. In 2001 home prices adjusted for inflation were twice as high as 1921, the first time a doubling had occurred. The shortest period of time for prices to double was from 1949 to 2006, 57 years.
2. Adjusted for inflation, had real estate prices ever declined nationally before 2007? ___yes, ___no.
A: Yes, prices drop about as often as they rise. When adjusted for inflation, home prices have dropped slightly more often than they have risen. This is true from 1890 to 2008 (52% of the years prices dropped after adjusting for inflation), from the end of WWII to 2008 (51% of the years prices dropped), from 1980 to 2008 (48% of the years prices dropped). The chart below shows inflation-adjusted single family home prices in the US (From Robert Shiller http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/data/Fig2-1.xls ).
3. Can the value of a home drop so much that it has to be given away in order to find a new owner?
A. Yes. There are currently numerous examples in Detroit and Cleveland, and an assortment of others in places like Indianapolis. When prices drop below several thousand dollars, the current owner is very likely paying out more than the purchase price for a real estate commission, title search and title insurance, and documents fees.
This most commonly happens to smaller homes in poor repair, and in areas where the population is dropping. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=49671eb0070dbe74&ei=K3FnSZnEKoKQNe2KwOkE&url=http%3A//money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/real_estate/thousand_dollar_homes/%3Fpostversion%3D2009010812&cid=1291117800&usg=AFQjCNHqWeJv4ixHrneUNW4mMuh0APfrLw
4. What portion of US homeowners take the mortgage interest deduction? ___under 30%, ___30-40%, __40-50%, __50-60%, __60-70%, ___over 70%
A. 40-50%. Approximately 43% of homeowners take the mortgage interest deduction.
In 2007 there were 75.6 million owner occupied homes. Owner occupied homes were 68% of all households. Only 29% of tax filers itemized and took the mortgage
interest deduction. 26.7 million (35%) of homeowners have no mortgage. 48.9 million (65% of homeowners) have mortgages. 42% of homeowners have mortages and take the mortgage interest deduction. Sources: Number of owner-occupied homes, 2007 American Housing Survey Table 1A. Number of owner-occupied homes with and without mortgages, 2007 American Housing Survey Table 2-19. Portion of tax returns with mortgage interest deduction from IRS Publication 1304 (2006), tables 1.1 and 2.1.
Note that many people who take the mortgage interest deduction don’t get to deduct the full interest cost. If you have no other deductions, the first $11,400 of mortgage interest doesn’t exceed the standard deduction.
5. Assume a couple purchases a home at the US median home price of $200,000 (as of 3rd quarter 2008), puts 10% down, and gets a $180,000 30 year fixed rate loan at 6% interest. Assume they are in the 25% tax bracket. If they have no other itemized deductions, about how much is the mortgage interest deduction worth to them? ___$12,000 ___$10,800 ___$3,000 ___$2,592 ___Zero.
A. Zero, zip, nada, zilch, absolutely nothing, a nullity. For 2009, the standard deduction for a married couple is $11,400. For a $180,000 loan at 6% interest, the interest is about $10,740 per year. Thus, there is no benefit for this couple to itemize and take the mortgage interest deduction.
Even if the couple had bought a more expensive house and taken the mortgage interest deduction, the interest would drop every year, and the standard deduction likely rises in future years. Thus, the value of the mortgage interest deduction drops every year the loan is outstanding.
Median home price as of Q3 2008 from National Association of Realtors , http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/connect/c5200d804bf84ae9beb7befda086cc0a/REL08Q3T.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=c5200d804bf84ae9beb7befda086cc0a .
Median national downpayment is from a Zillow survey for Q3 2008, http://www.zillow.com/reports/RealEstateMarketReports.htm. Even at a 5% downpayment, there would still be no benefit to the mortgage interest deduction.
Standard deduction for 2009 is from http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=187825,00.html
6. If overall inflation is 3% per year (with similar rates of inflation for home prices, maintenance, and property taxes), buying a house with a fixed rate mortgage means that the cost of living in that house will ____ stay the same for 30 years, ____rise by 1-3% per year, _____rise by 3%+ per year?
A. Rise by 1-3% per year. Because the costs of maintenance, insurance, and property taxes all rise over time, having a fixed rate loan is only a partial hedge against inflation. The portion of the mortgage payment which is interest drops each year, and the standard deduction rises. For people who take the mortgage interest deduction, the aftertax mortgage payment rises slowly over time, even with a fixed rate mortgage.
7. Through 12/31/05 (near the peak of the housing bubble), which investment had the highest return over the past 100 years? ____stocks (Dow/S&P 500), ____high grade bonds, ____ single family homes
A. Stocks 6.7%, Bonds 2.6%, Single family homes 0.7%. Those are real numbers adjusted for inflation. Since they are all measured over the same time periods, without adjusting for inflation, stocks would still have outperformed bonds, and both would have outperformed houses. Sources: Real rates of returns for stocks and bonds Prof Jeremy Siegel, Wharton School, http://archives2.sifma.org/boca2005/pdf/JeremySiegel.pdf . Real returns on homes prices, from Robert Shiller, Yale University, http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/data/Fig2-1.xls .
8. Do children of renters and homeowners living in adjacent homes/condos typically attend different public schools? ___yes, no
A. They all attend the same public schools. Parents don’t need to buy in a good school district in order to have their children attend school there.
9. If a stockbroker or investment advisor knowingly made misleading statements about historic returns on an investment to a potential investor, what would happen?
A. He would be subject to discipline, fines, revocation of his license, and under certain circumstances criminal prosecution. Rule 10b-5 of the Federal Securities Act of 1934 Employment of Manipulative and Deceptive Devices states:
“It shall be unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly, by the use of any means or instrumentality of interstate commerce, or of the mails or of any facility of any national securities exchange,
a. To employ any device, scheme, or artifice to defraud,
b. To make any untrue statement of a material fact or to omit to state a material fact necessary in order to make the statements made, in the light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading, or
c. To engage in any act, practice, or course of business which operates or would operate as a fraud or deceit upon any person, in connection with the purchase or sale of any security.”
There are many similar state law provisions.
10. If a realtor (or the National Association of Realtors) made misleading statements about real estate, what would happen?
A. If recent experience is any guide, they would be ignored or mocked, but would not encounter any sanctions. Real estate itself is not classified as a security, and the Federal government does not regulate misrepresentation regarding investment returns on real estate.
An extremely public example of a questionable or misleading claim is a National Association of Realtors ad which first aired in 2008. It claims “On average, the value of a home nearly doubles every 10 years”, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyZpNIyVKQk .
The Wall Street Journal skewered this claim, and another investment return calculation from the National Assoc of Realtors at http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2008/01/29/nar-campaign-touts-real-estate-as-a-great-investment/ . Here is an excerpt:
“It’s a “very misleading statement,” said James R. Webb, director of the Center for Real Estate Brokerage and Markets at Cleveland State University and a professor of finance. Mr. Webb noted that housing-price appreciation rates vary across the U.S. and that “the rates for appreciation that we saw in the past few years were artificial due to the fact that we gave a zillion people mortgages who shouldn’t have gotten them. If we hadn’t given those people the mortgages, those rates of appreciation wouldn’t have happened.”
It’s best to view a house as a home – not as an investment he stressed, adding, “You shouldn’t buy a house if you don’t need a house. You should buy a house because you want to live in it, not because it’s a good investment. People have become seduced by the idea that a house is a good investment.”
We also phoned Chris Mayer, the director of the Milstein Center for Real Estate at Columbia Business School. About NAR’s down payment/stock market comparison, Mr. Mayer said, “That’s insane. If one of my students made that calculation, I would fail them.”
NAR’s calculation leaves out several important variables, such as closing costs, how much money goes into maintaining a property, brokers’ fees, property taxes and “the risk of using 95% leverage – in the example NAR puts forth, the buyer only puts down 5% of the home’s cost and borrows the rest, he explained.”
11. Which of the following groups files for bankruptcy most often, and is most likely to lose a home through foreclosure?
___Single men, ___Single women, ___Couples with no children, ___ Couples with children
A. Couples with children are the most likely to file bankruptcy, and the most likely to be foreclosed on. “The families in the worst financial trouble are not the usual suspects. They are not the very young, tempted by the freedom of their first cr
edit cards. They are not the elderly trapped by failing bodies and declining savings accounts. And they are not a random assortment of Americans who lack the self-control to keep their spending in check. Rather, the people who consistently rank the in the worst financial trouble are united by one surprising characteristic. They are parents with children at home.” The Growing Threat to Middle Class Families, Elizabeth Warren, Harvard Law School, http://www.nacba.org/files/new_in_debate/GrowingThreatMiddleClassFamilies.pdf .
12. If you have a 30 year fixed rate loan at 6% interest, how much of the principal will you have paid off after 15 years? __under 25%, __25-35%, __35-45%, __45-55%, __over 55%.
A. 25-35%. At the end of 15 years, at 6% you would have paid off 29.4% of principal. At 5% interest, you would have paid off 32.5%. At 7% interest you would have paid off 26.6%.
13. Does taking a home equity loan or refinancing for a higher amount make it more likely you will be foreclosed on? __ Yes, __No
A. Yes, because you now have higher monthly payments, and the total outstanding loans are larger. This makes it more likely you will have difficulty making payments due to job loss, divorce, or serious medical problems. It also makes it more likely that you cannot sell the house for at least the loan value.
14. In 2007, CA had 13.2 million houses, condos, and apartments. How many people in CA had real estate licenses? ___under 100,000; ___200,000-300,000; ___300,000-400,000; ___400,000-500,000; ___500,000-600,000; ___over 600,000.
A. 500,000-600,000 http://www.ocregister.com/money/estate-real-number-1970845-people-last. As of Dec 07 there were 548,959 people with CA real estate licenses. One for every 24.2 housing units. The number of housing units (including 8% vacant) is from http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/NPTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US06&-qr_name=ACS_2007_3YR_G00_NP01&-ds_name=&-redoLog=false. 60.2% were owner occupied as of 2006, *http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/annual06/ann06t13.html . That means one real estate agent for every 14.6 households. Of course, not all real estate agents do residential sales. Some do commercial, some do leasing, and some have licenses for other purposes.
I’m not like them
But I can pretend
The sun is gone,
But I have a light
The day is done,
I’m having fun
I think I’m dumb
Or maybe just happy
Think I’m just happy (x3)
My heart is broke
But I have some glue
Help me inhale
And mend it with you
We’ll float around
And hang out on clouds
Then we’ll come down
And have a hangover
Have a hangover (x3)
Skin the sun
Fall asleep
Wish away
soul is cheap
Lesson learned
Wish me luck
Soothe the burn
Wake me up
I’m not like them
But I can pretend
The sun is gone,
But I have a light
the day is done,
I’m having fun
I think I’m dumb
Or Maybe just happy
Think I’m just happy (x3)
I think I’m Dumb (x12)
Dumb — Nirvana