High house prices, high unemployment, and a state budget shortfall have contributed to out-migration to other states.
Irvine Home Address … 12 VENEZIA AISLE Irvine, CA 92606
Resale Home Price …… $564,900
California, Here I Come
Right back where I started from
where bowers of flowers
bloom in the spring
each morning at dawning
birdies sing at everything
a sunkissed miss said, “Don't be late!”
that's why I can hardly wait
open up that golden gate
California, Here I Come
Al Jolson — California, Here I Come
Are they? Are the people still coming? Will we form enough households to create the demand necessary to sustain current pricing given the problems in California?
Does today's topic seem familiar? If you were reading during the Christmas holidays, you may remember With people leaving Orange County, who will buy our overpriced homes?
The California Ponzi scheme economy collapsed as the Great Housing Bubble deflated. I have documented over a thousand cases of HELOC abuse here in Irvine, California. Most economists underestimate the economic stimulus of millions of homeowners being given hundreds of thousands of dollars in free money by our banks. Now that this money is gone, Orange County home prices too high for incomes or rents, and Orange County home sales are falling with prices to follow.
These economic woes are prompting families to leave the state. With new household formation near historic lows as we get off the Ponzi juice, there is little tangible demand for housing, and prospects for this demand increasing appear weak.
Today we look at a different dataset showing the same basic pattern: people with a choice about where they live are choosing to live outside of California. Population is still growing because births exceed the outmigration, but newborns don't buy homes, and those who need work to buy homes are leaving the state due to our high unemployment and high cost of living.
Have dark days dulled shine of the Golden State?
Source: USA TODAY
Publication date: March 9, 2011
By William M. Welch
High unemployment, foreclosures and a staggering budget crisis detour domestic migration from California
LOS ANGELES — Census figures released Tuesday detail the new reality that Californians are facing: The Golden State is experiencing the limits that come with slower growth.
Often viewed as a leading indicator for the rest of the country, California is a state where whites are no longer in the majority and where the rise of Hispanics is changing the face of its population and its public schools.
High unemployment, record home foreclosures and declines in industries such as construction and technology have put the brakes on the economy. Joblessness in the state was 12.5% in December, compared with 4.7% in January 2001, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
While the nation is emerging from a recession, California felt it early and is continuing to lag, economists say. That makes the state far less attractive to residents of other states who in previous decades may have longed to join the California dream.
“The biggest change is definitely the slowing down in our rate of growth and the almost total stop of people coming to California from other states,” says Douglas Johnson, a fellow at the Rose Institute of State and Local Government in Claremont.
California house prices went up so fast during the last 40 years at different times through a combination of wage growth and irrational exuberance. Even if every market were at rental parity and stayed there, many California markets would have outperformed the nation because wage growth outperformed the nation.
High wages coupled with robust employment growth drives a great deal of household formation and demand for housing. The California story for the last 40 years has been, off and on, boom and bust, with an undercurrent of strong wage growth. The wage growth is what makes the real estate engine purr. It corrects all mistakes. Overpaying is only a problem for those who can't wait for house prices to come back, right?
Without wage growth, homebuilding grinds to a halt, household formation slows, and home prices stagnate. 
Population growth in recent years in California appears to be internally driven — more people having babies than dying — rather than the massive immigration the state once saw, he said. The Hispanic population is growing fast in part because much of it is of childbearing age while the white and black populations are older.
The small decline, just under 1%, in black population is the first ever such decline in the state, says demographer Hans Johnson at the Public Policy Institute of California.
The state still is attractive to immigrants, particularly from Latin America and Asia, but as with domestic migration, many immigrants now are going to other Western states. “We're not the trailblazers for the rest of the country that we were,” Douglas Johnson says. The Golden State, he says, “has definitely lost its shine for people from other states.”
What is there to attract outsiders to California? Yes, the weather is great, but house prices are double or more the cost of other areas of the country, job prospects are bleak, and state government is dysfunctional.
At the same time, political dysfunction has left the state with staggering budget problems every year and produced large-scale public disaffection with the state's political leaders and institutions.
Gov. Jerry Brown, once the state's youngest governor and since his election last November its oldest at 72, has proposed tax increase extensions and massive budget cuts. He is working to win the backing of the state's business community to get tax proposals on a statewide ballot in an effort to close a projected $25 billion shortfall by June 2012.
“We have become an average-growth state,” says Stephen Levy, director of the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy in Palo Alto.
So much for that above-average wage growth.
He says the Los Angeles area's growth in part is due to an influx of upper-income Asian immigrants buying homes and settling, and a strong entertainment industry. He notes, though, that 600,000 construction jobs were lost in the recession, and tens of thousands of aerospace jobs have been lost permanently over the past two decades or so.
The FCBs will save us. Irvine will become a hub of savvy buyers who seek to outbid each other with cash for an Irvine tract home. Forget posh condos in Manhattan when you can invest in single-family detached homes in Irvine.
California's dynamic growth through much of the 20th century couldn't last forever, demographers say.
Joel Kotkin, executive editor of the website NewGeography.com, blames California's tax and regulatory climate, which he says discourages business. He says big businesses may not be fleeing, but they are directing their expansions elsewhere.
The problem with being one of the highest prices markets in the country is that every nearby market pulls you down by the substitution effect. The high prices in coastal California pushes growth inland as buyers substitute driving distance for cheaper housing. Cheaper substitutes in Riverside County limit price increases in Orange County.
The state saw big population increases in inland areas, where lower housing costs and pre-recession job opportunities made it attractive. Populous coastal areas grew more slowly.
“You've got demographically stagnant coastal areas controlling the fate of more demographically vital inland areas,” Kotkin says.
Inland Riverside County grew more than 40%, even though Hans Johnson says it and other interior regions were devastated by the recession in the last several years of the decade. Five of the nation's top 10 metro areas for home foreclosures are in California's interior region, according to RealtyTrac.com, which tracks foreclosures.
Unfortunately, much of the housing demand of 2003-2006 was artificial demand. When lenders lowered standards to qualify more borrowers, those borrowers bought a house and stimulated a great deal of household formation. With access to cheap money gone, the demand that was pulled forward is now absent from the market.
The limits have been clear in the pessimistic views voiced by Californians in monthly polling conducted by the Public Policy Institute of California. It found in February that by 55%-34%, Californians think things are going in the wrong direction in the state. Still, the 34% saying it was going in the right direction was up from 16% last October, just before the election.
Mark Baldassare, CEO of the institute, says Californians want an end to their annual state budget dramas and are sensing that the economy is stabilizing. He says the state is still one of the largest economies in the world and offers attractive weather, beautiful scenery and a diverse cultural vitality.
“People were shocked by the economic problems and the fiscal problems of the state during the past few years,” he says, “but they're beginning to get the sense that things are stabilizing and coming back to what might be a new normal. It's a time of more limited expectations, but nonetheless some feeling of hope and promise for the future.“
For as bad as things look for California, this crisis too shall pass. The idea of a “new normal” is the cultural equivalent of the The Unceremonious Fall from Entitlement. Everyone has to adjust to a lifestyle within their means. The days of endless Ponzi borrowing are not coming back soon — they may come back — but not anytime soon.
We have done nothing of substance to prevent desire for mortgage equity withdrawal from Inflating another housing bubble. Most buyers of California real estate at least acknowledge it is a distinct possibility that the market may go insane, their home values could go orbital, and they may be offered free money to spend. I would argue that many buyers have this expectation.
If wage growth does not match its historic stellar performance, real estate appreciation will not either. An entire generation is overpaying in anticipation of appreciation that may not materialize.
Bringing cash to the closing?
The owner of today's featured property paid $579,000 on 5/5/2004. He used a $452,000 first mortgage, a $113,000 second mortgage, and a $19,000 down payment. On 6/8/2006 he refinanced with a $560,000 first mortgage which represents a $5,000 reduction in his mortgage balance. For his amazing mortgage management skills, I am giving him a B on the HELOC abuse grading system.
He is trying to get out for a price near his 2004 purchase price. Ordinarily, you would think that selling seven years after buying a property you would be able to sell it without losing money, but that is not the case for this property.
Do you see the face looking down on the kitchen nook table? I think it's frightened by the price.
Irvine Home Address … 12 VENEZIA AISLE Irvine, CA 92606 
Resale Home Price … $564,900
Home Purchase Price … $579,000
Home Purchase Date …. 5/5/2004
Net Gain (Loss) ………. $(47,994)
Percent Change ………. -8.3%
Annual Appreciation … -0.4%
Cost of Ownership
————————————————-
$564,900 ………. Asking Price
$112,980 ………. 20% Down Conventional
4.85% …………… Mortgage Interest Rate
$451,920 ………. 30-Year Mortgage
$114,979 ………. Income Requirement
$2,385 ………. Monthly Mortgage Payment
$490 ………. Property Tax
$0 ………. Special Taxes and Levies (Mello Roos)
$94 ………. Homeowners Insurance
$361 ………. Homeowners Association Fees
============================================
$3,329 ………. Monthly Cash Outlays
-$405 ………. Tax Savings (% of Interest and Property Tax)
-$558 ………. Equity Hidden in Payment
$210 ………. Lost Income to Down Payment (net of taxes)
$71 ………. Maintenance and Replacement Reserves
============================================
$2,647 ………. Monthly Cost of Ownership
Cash Acquisition Demands
——————————————————————————
$5,649 ………. Furnishing and Move In @1%
$5,649 ………. Closing Costs @1%
$4,519 ………… Interest Points @1% of Loan
$112,980 ………. Down Payment
============================================
$128,797 ………. Total Cash Costs
$40,500 ………… Emergency Cash Reserves
============================================
$169,297 ………. Total Savings Needed
Property Details for 12 VENEZIA AISLE Irvine, CA 92606
—————————————————————————— 
Beds: 4
Baths: 3
Sq. Ft.: 2000
$282/SF
Lot Size: –
Property Type: Residential, Condominium
Style: 3+ Levels, Mediterranean
View: Pool, Faces East, Faces North, Faces Northeast
Year Built: 1992
Community: Westpark
County: Orange
MLS#: P771098
Source: SoCalMLS
Status: Active
——————————————————————————
Best located home in Corte Bella! Corner unit spaced away from surrounding buildings which gives this home much privacy. Excellent views of pool, fountains, and sculpture garden. Unobstructed northern and eastern exposure give this home unequaled brightness and privacy. Sound of waterfalls creates resort feel. 3 Bedrooms Up, den, office, gym or 4th bedroom downstairs. Many upgrades including maple hardwood floors, granite counter tops, plantation shutters, surround sound, cental vacum. Former model home with very high ceilings. Gated community with no Mello Roos. Black and white race deck checkered tiles in garage. Beautiful Italian design. Play ground, tennis courts, soccer field, baseball diamond, hockey court, basketball court all within a 1 minute walk. Unit will be available for viewing by appointment only, owner is agent.
Some British humor for you. It's painful to watch:
Thank you for reading the Irvine Housing Blog.
Astutely observing the housing market and combating California Kool-Aid since 2006.
Have a great weekend,
Irvine Renter
The governor and Obama should think about changing the tax system.
The influx of Latino is fueled by the fact that they can get free schools, cheap medicine for their kids, food stamps, etc, but don’t pay taxes at all because of low incomes. 50% of the US population doesn’t pay taxes at all because it’s socialistic: the rich pay all taxes.
Why does the governor want to raise sales tax, auto registration fee, etc but says nothing about raising house property taxes?
Why does he want to cut school financing? The future of America depends on highly educated people who can create technically complex products.
Doesn’t he understand that low-skilled foreigners only consume, don’t produce anything competitive?
poor people might vote differently regarding taxation if it affected their pocketbook as well.
the “eat the rich” mentality scares capital to other countries and hinders job opportunity here which serves to lower wages and standard of living – oh the irony.
MIT Grad? most likely a statist, but what would you expect from the educated elite of this country?
Vincenzo,
I know you might one of those undercover racist who blames foreigners for your own lack of accomplishment, but it’s getting old. Take some personal responsibility for your failures in life instead of blaming it on brown people. You can succeed too, if you remove the hate from your heart and concentrate on making something of yourself.
I did it, and yes, my parents were immigrants. I had to deal with racist remarks when I was younger from people who thought like you. I got free lunch, and food stamps, and my father worked in a cement factory. He didn’t produce anything “technologically” complex, but he did work very hard to put me through school.
I learned from his work ethic, and eventually was accepted at MIT (c/0 2002) on a full ride scholarship. Now I work at Apple, you know, the company that created the iPhone?
Before you blame others for your own personal failures, remember, some of the problems you may be experiencing may be internal. Sometimes change comes from within.
I haven’t failed, it’s the socialist state of California that has failed. I have nothing against brown or red or yellow people. I just have the perception that socialism or communism, which favors the poor and equality, is not good for the state. Your perception can be different.
Yes, I’ve checked a few products from Apple. All had labels “Made in China”. I also checked the products from HTC, a Chinese company. The same quality, better prices.
Can you ask Steve Jobs, “Why would he hire American engineers when Chinese or Indian ones are 10 times cheaper?” For some reason, many Irvine companies told me, “We have a team in India or Russia or China. Now, what is your rate?”
“I just have the perception that socialism or communism, which favors the poor and equality, is not good for the state.”
Dude, the fact that you don’t know the difference between socialism and communism, speaks volumes on how much you know what you are talking about.
I cannot resist, you think you are John Galt?
Communism is in China ruled by the Communist Party. It’s great: people have permission to work for $100 a month 12 hours a day and live in factory dorms.
Socialism is not as good.
Sweden is a socialist country. 1 million people out of 4 million of the working age live on unemployment and get free apartments from the government. No need in higher education because an highly-skilled engineer earns almost the same money as a factory worker.
Haven’t heard about Swedish achievements for a long time.
“Socialism is not as good”
See what you are doing there? You are drawing a conclusion. Then you go running of making statements who are not really grounded in reality.
“Haven’t heard about Swedish achievements for a long time.”
Gee I don’t know man. Their GDP is almost as high as us. Their Gini Index is lower than ours. Per Wikipedia, only 10 nations hold more patents than the Sweden and they are second only to Switzerland in natural science and engineering in terms of the number of publications per capita.
But heck man, let’s not allow facts get in the way! Socialism is Evil!
I am an independent IT consultant and have worked (not visited but actually worked) in 6 different countries. I like to think that it offered me an opportunity to realize that every society and country needs to evolve a system suited to its needs. I don’t have anything against capitalism, nor am I a die-hard socialist. What riles me up is when I see labels like socialist thrown around as if it is a 4 letter curse.
Don’t get me started on my retired parents on Medicad complaining about the socialist obamacare.
I’m no socialist, but I think you’re just making it up here. Sweden is socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. They’re in much better shape than we are after this housing bubble. And where else am I supposed to get flapper valve steel? Sandvik just gave me another 5% price increase.
I’d ask Steve Jobs (if I could) “Why would he hire American engineers when Chinese or Indian ones are 10 times cheaper?”. I’d hope his answer was “So that they could afford to buy the products they were designing.
About racism.
Somehow, people say politically correct things but don’t want to send their kids to public schools in the middle of Santa Ana to get experience from the children of new immigrants.
Santa Ana’s nothing. Try Compton or East LA.
MIT Grad,
I’m not sure how an MIT grad jumped to the conclusions you did from Vincenzo’s comments. What makes you think that he is a personal failure? He seemed to be commenting on the fact that 50% of people in the US don’t pay income tax and yet the government continues to try to squeeze those of us who do pay income taxes. Based on his complaint, I would have to assume that he is in the 50% who do pay taxes, meaning he has done okay for himself.
As for myself, I don’t agree at all with the current tax system. I would love to see a less graduated tax scale. Actually, I would like to know what percentage of income taxes go to research grants, entitlement programs and pet projects. For the sake of discussion, let’s assume that equals 50% of state income tax revenue. I think that every taxpayer should be able to allot 50% of their taxes to the programs THEY support. If I wanted 50% of my taxes to go towards environmental research, I should be able to decide that. If I wanted 25% to go towards AIDS research and 25% to go towards welfare for single moms, I should be able to choose that. It would be a much more democratic way of doing business than we currently have in place. I just don’t think that it is fair that proportionately I contribute more money to the goverment spending allowance than I have power to decide its use. In fact, the less you pay in taxes the more decision power per dollar contributed you have. Doesn’t that seem a bit backwards?
The 2010 Census data seems to agree:
2000 Irvine population
Total 143k Asians 42k 29.4%
2010 Irvine population
Total 212k Asians 83k 39.1%
And I don’t think that even counts the Middle Easterners and Indians.
The substitution effect for Riverside was more effective when gas was cheaper. Now, that gas and/or toll road premium you have to pay (not to mention the commute time and hassle) makes that difference in house prices less attractive.
I think South County and closer homes will see more buyers than the IE. Not only do they have more inventory than Irvine, they are over 20% less. The problem is there isn’t enough ethnic demand there (maybe someone should build a Diamond Jamboree center in Ladera).
I think you figured out the solution to Ladera Ranch’s problems.
Start with a Ranch 99.
Before you know it the schools and property values will be premium.
Dude, give me a break on Ranch 99, will ya? I don’t think San Gabriel is all that great of a city to live in even with all those Chinese markets.
Hope you are right. Just put in an offer in Foothill Ranch.
Areas like foothill ranch benefit from their proximity to Irvine. South County doesn’t hurt Irvine in any way.
Irvine = South County + 20 minutes in traffic each way.
I know someone who works in the Airport district that moved from Irvine to San Clemente. Each offers different things, and people can choose based on their lifestyle or other desires. He uses his commute time, so he doesn’t mind the extra 20 minutes.
South County is a substitute for a significant demographic that also buys in Irvine. Perhaps you and your friends wouldn’t buy down there, but others will and do.
The people who buy in south county generally aren’t interested in buying in Irvine, or have given up on Irvine.
South County prices are set by The 20 minute commute to Irvine jobs and the longer commute to more jobs up north.
South County prices are helped by Irvine. South County does not hurt Irvine.
I don’t think that will work. Back in 2005, my wife and I went to that area to look at more affordable housing. It was late, so we decided to grab dinner at Chili’s.
When we went inside, you’d think we brought a giant panda in with us. Every head turned and stared like they had never seen dark-hair-brown-eyes before.
Until that changes, I don’t know how many FCBs will be attracted to that area.
The other deterrent was the 20-odd minute drive just to get to the I5.
The day you folks in the ‘Golden State’ passed Prop. 13 (06/06/78) was the day I realized I would never be a CA homeowner. The freeze in property values at 1975 levels meant it was obvious to this person (22 years old at the time) that new buyers would be the ones stuck with higher values and thus larger property tax bills. But why your state doesn’t revalue real estate everytime a HELOC or Re-Fi was made against the property based on an increased assessment value seems at best a missed opportunity. Oh well…
stop inflation. problems solved.
Um, can you explain your conclusion that Prop 13 results in higher sales prices?
Prop 13 gives an incentive for people to hold their homes which means less inventory which means higher prices. Getting rid of Prop 13 will cause more people to sell homes…more inventory ..lower prices.
I have a good example of the prop 13 effect.
I bought a house in 1981 for $90,000. It is now worth about $425,000. The prop 13 allows for 2% appreciation/year I believe, so after 30 years of ownership, my house is taxed at $196,000 in 2011. It goes up every year, but only at about 2% max.
So my prop tax bill is close to $2,000/year while my neighbor who bought last year is around $5,000.
I’m renting this property out, but if there were no prop 13, I would have sold it.
zubs gets ‘the rubs’ – I knew back in 1978 that soon there would be identical properties located adjacently which would have 10X value differences based on when thy bought. That’s when I gave my west coast push and, BTW, I would have been a worthy SF resident had we moved there in 1964 as we would have if ‘x’ had not…. But it did, we did not, & f*ck prop 13…
The desire to not be overrun by illegal immigrants has absolutely nothing do with racism, not that Mexican is a ‘race’ anyway. We need to enforce our laws, eliminate sanctuary cities, cut off health care, education and food subsidies to those here without permission, and put teeth into laws that punish companies for employing the unauthorized. If every state took these steps we would have to take down those stupid border fences to avoid bottlenecks for the waves of people walking back to their home soil. Believe me, I would say the same thing if the country were overrun by millions of Canadians or Swedes. And before the liberals accuse me of being stupid just let me say that I am fully bilingual and have lived in Mexico and Central America. This has given me perspective into the thought process of those that head North.
Don’t be racist, we do it for the children!
Thoughts and prayers to the people of Japan and those affected by the earthquake.
Just a quick comment on the featured property – I used to live in Corte Bella (aka community of ‘aisles’). Back in 2004, I rented the master bedroom in one of the units that faced the gate and fountain. Had a very nice time living there, no complaints for the most part – there was this one time where water flowed down the air vent, other than that not much else to complain about. I think the landlady did complain about the high HOA at the time, among some other things. Would I buy a unit there now? Sure, if they cut the price in half (asking and HOA). Haha. Otherwise, I’ll just rent there if I needed to live in Irvine.
Regarding the communism/socialism discussion – I think it’s best summed up as the resentment against the ever expanding growth of the statist government and welfare state. If you think such growth is good because it promotes ‘social justice’ (whatever that may mean to you) and ‘fairness’ (again, whatever that may mean to you), then well, good for you. Others see the growth of government as an decrease in their liberty and property (i.e. increased taxes). Welfare programs like medicaid/medicare/social security may sound like good ideas at the time, but in the end it will bankrupt this country (those entitlement programs already take up more than 60% of the federal budget). The effect of those programs is that people are less self-reliant and sufficient and increase their dependency on those programs (i.e. they have a increased ‘sense of entitlement’). Why take care of yourself, be prudent and save for a rainy day and retirement when you know you’ll be covered?
It’s this same line of thinking that produced the idea of ‘too big to fail’. If you know you’ll be bailed out if you don’t make good decisions, then there is a lot less incentive to make good decisions in the future, and just take more risk and gamble and ‘enjoy life’.
If you want an illustration of the difference between capitalists and socialists/communists, just compare the tea party rallies with the protesters in Madison, Wisconsin.
In case you are confused, socialists and communists were part of the protests in Madison.
The focus of populace should be on ensuring that govt is fair to all its citizens and corruption is kept in checked. Social justice and equality are accepted as desirable everywhere in the Western world. When I travel, nowhere (in the democratic, western world) do I run into people who equate taxation with reduced liberty.
All this talk of socialist this and that is just hogwash. Heck the govt needs to be kept out of it! The fact that the Gov in Wisconsin is sucking up to the Koch brothers is ignored. Sometimes, I think that the rich and the powerful want to turn the clock back to when we had children cleaning chimneys and no one had to worry about the bad gibment sticking its nose where it did not belong
It is all sold
“back to when we had children cleaning chimneys and no one had to worry about the bad gibment sticking its nose where it did not belong”
The state of MO (just call it the State of Misery) is returning to the early 19th century as its legislature contemplates a bill that would remove ALL restrictions and regulations on child labor for children under age 14. The bill will remove all restrictions on age, working hours, working conditions, and types of jobs.
There’s nothing “libertarian” about exploiting children who are half-formed and subordinate to adults by law and by their own unformed state. Children have no way to defend themselves against the exploitation and brutalization that will surely happen if this legislation passes.
We’re reversing all the progress we’ve made in protecting the weak and defenseless in the past century.
Go to the job hunting websites of the big IT companies and you will see many many IT openings for computer programmers.
The openings are always there and the companies interview hundreds and hundreds all the time, trying to find one who is good at it.
The IT companies already scour the world for them, and get H1B visas for all they can find to hire.
They can’t find enough. Wanting to code for $10/hr and being born with the ability to code are two different things.
Exactly right, $10 an hour my ass. They import them into 6 figure jobs. The companies can’t find enough here, unfortunately because not enough US citizens have the drive to get phds and improve themselves.
Salaries in IT have stagnated for over 10 years. I’m making the same salary I made in 2000 and haven’t moved since. Why is that? Because globalization puts a downward pressure on salaries here in the US. As such, IT in the private sector is a dead-end career now. The only caveat to this is working for the government, which generally has a US citizen only requirement for employment.
IT companies don’t need to bring anybody to the US.
Go to the Careers section of Broadcom.
City: Bangalore, Bangalore, Bangalore…
It’s even easier for small companies: supply a bid for a program, website, etc and somebody will create it for $200.
so this seller has lost -8.3%… if they had bought similar profile home somewhere other than irvine, wouldnt they have lost more?
definitely love reading the ihb, have learned much about real estate from many of the posts… the one thing tho about irvine, and your comment that maybe the FCBs will save us.. i guess you mean negate the impact of the double-dip in irvine? yes i think so…but no, i dont think they are savvy buyers..
they just want a home to own, and irvine has to be it..
speaking from personal experience, those with the means to move to america from china/taiwan/korea.. they only want to live in irvine(of course san marino is what they aspire to), even forcing their american-born ethnically-asian spouse/son-in-law to commute 45 miles one-way to their job in downtown la.. i remember asking, whats wrong with los alamitos or cypress? not enough white residents(safety factor) and/or not enough asian food(comfort factor) was the response.. i guess that would be the out-migration of whites from ca reflected in the census