Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard, oh lord, why dont we?
We all know that people are the same where ever we go
There is good and bad in evryone,
We learn to live, we learn to give
Each other what we need to survive together alive.
Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony
Ebony and Ivory — Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder
Another day another 2004 rollback. Doesn’t the world seem to be in perfect harmony with the bearish predictions we have made on this blog?
Asking Price: $745,000
Income Requirement: $186,250
Downpayment Needed: $149,000
Purchase Price: $752,000
Purchase Date: 9/30/2004
Address: 3462 Eboe, Irvine, CA 92606
First Mortgage $672,000
HELOC $168,000
Total Debt $840,000
Beds: 4
Baths: 2.5
Sq. Ft.: 2,621
$/Sq. Ft.: $284
Lot Size: 5,564 sq. ft.
Type: Single Family Residence
Style: Contemporary
Year Built: 1974
Stories: Two Levels
Area: Walnut
County: Orange
MLS#: S499486
Status: Active
On Redfin: 105 days
Unsold in 90+ days
From Redfin, “BANK SAYS. .SUBMIT!! LARGEST MODEL W/ CUSTOM POOL, SPA, SWIM UP BAR, FIRE PIT, KID’S PLAY POOL, COVERED PATIO. CUSTOMIZED W/ CEASAR STONE COUNTERS, DESINGER TILE BACKSPLASH, CERAMIC GLASS COOKTOP, BUIT-IN FRIDGE & MORE IN KITCHEN. MASTER SUITE W/ CROWN MOLDING, TRAVERTINE COUNTERS & DUAL SINKS, OVERSIZED SPA TUB SURROUND. .. FAMILY ROOM W/ FIREPLACE. BONUS ROOM. .. BAMBOO FLOORS DOWNSTAIRS, 6′ BASEBOARDS, DESIGNER PAINT, SCRAPED CEILINGS. SHORT SALE SUBJECT TO BANK APPROVAL.”
Another ALL CAPS description… {Sigh}
BANK SAYS. .SUBMIT!! — We are your masters. You must submit an offer. Save our Christmas bonuses…
.
.
So how much is the bank going to lose? If they get the asking price, and if there is a 6% commission, the total loss is $139,700.
I know we have stated this before, but it bears repeating (pun intended): 20% downpayments will become the standard again. What lender is going to be willing to loan the remaining 20% given all the losses we are seeing on second mortgages? The credit crunch is going to get much worse before it gets any better.
The main reason I believe we are in for a harder landing (prices dropping below the 160 gross rent multiplier breakeven for an owner occupant) is because nobody has saved the 20% downpayments, and no lenders are going to be willing to loan this 20% or any portion thereof.
Over the last 4 or 5 years, nobody needed to save for a downpayment because 100% financing was available. People respond to incentives, and they were incentivized not to save. Savings must come from income, not from a HELOC on another property.
Until prices drop low enough for entry level buyers to come up with a 20% downpayment, and until people actually start saving for this amount, we will not find a bottom. Without entry level buyers, the whole chain of move ups grinds to a halt. This is why sales are so dismal, and it is also why prices will continue to drop precipitously.
Food for thought on the weekend…
It appears there are houses in hell.
So ends another week at the Irvine Housing Blog. I hope you have had a good time with us. We will bring you more next week as we continue chronicling ‘the seventh circle of real estate hell.’ Have a great weekend.
I make a six figure salary and it would take me about 8 yrs to save this much for a down payment. If I just ate ramen noodles for all my meals and stopped driving altogether, I bet I could do it in 6 years. So unless prices fall dramatically or 100% financing comes back (HAHA), it will be a looooong time before I or anyone I know will be buying homes.
—–
That is exactly the problem. I fear this down cycle will last longer and drop farther than previous cycles for just that reason.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
This has been my feeling for a long time. The prices weren’t inflated as such. Inflation implies some tie to reality. The RE prices in many places have been artificially blown up way past anything realistic.
Now the problem is managing the decline in “value” and decline our financial overlords will allow (both private and governmental).
Speculation on that issue fascinates and frankly, I don’t see how the bottom actually arrives.
At this point do we have any information on the types of loans that are being written. I hear on the radio and see on the internet ads for very low teaser rate loans. Are these just ads that got started before the correction? I agree that if a 20% down payment becomes the standard for purchasing a home, prices will fall further than we ever expected.
Does anyone know if banks pay attention to the “predictions” in real estate markets. Fore example forbes says we will see a 22 % drop and Goldman says a 30 % drop Does the bank then say………….to cover our downside risk we need at least a 30% down payment ?
Dunno if it’s a coincidence or not: Props to furious sugar who found Eboe as part of Wednesday’s ‘bear challenge!’
I posted a message to IrvineRenter on a Yahoo message board.
I had to use the message board as a tool to document what I am doing – you will understand if you go to the message board.
So get into Yahoo.
Then hit the “Finance” tab.
Enter the stock symbol PFS (I chose this stock because there is very little message posting for this stock).
Then look for the Message Board tab on the left hand side.
That will take you to a post called “Irvine Housing Bubble”
Read the post and decide if you want to respond.
If not thanx for a great board which I check every day and has helped me (among many other tools) have a great year investing in this housing cycle.
HCF
I have a new blog helper named Brittney who is sending me emails with the various properties. She has been very helpful. I have about a dozen properties lined up to profile. Eboe was one of them.
We have many rollbacks coming down the pipeline. Perhaps one of them will meet furious sugar’s challenge.
Just for reference, furious’s feverish find.
I know realtards put forth zero effort in hawking a house, but these descriptions are getting worse. 6′ baseboards?? Wouldn’t that cover the windows?
Hmm, I think a safe rent will be $2500/month. mulitple of 100. $250,000.
I wonder if the agent has the guts to carry an offer like that forward?
Would it sell at $450,000. Most likely. However, it’s a repo, who knows what’s wrong with it. Plus, if you want a regular buyer at $450K, you need to list it at $450K, or at least $500K.
It’s Irvine, family-ville. Yet, here’s a house with swim up bar in the pool for swinger parties. Interesting, don’t know if that’ll cancel the benefit of a pool. 2nd negative, it appears they’ve smoked the whole yard into a concrete slab for the pool.
It’s a 1/3rd mile to the tracks, 1/3rd of mile to I5, 300 yards to Jamboree and three houses from the two main collector streets.
If you email me, it will be much easier.
“Ceasar Stone Counters, Desinger Tile Backsplash, Buit-In Refrigerator….”
Julius Caesar would be rolling over in his grave if only he could roll over on all Realtors who casually misspell his name.
Desinger tile? Is that tile which have had Britney Spears surgically removed?
Buit-In Fridge… reading fast, it looks like butt in fridge.
How come Realtors capitalize their titles? Is this another misspelling or just an attempt to look more important than they are?
Banks record the HELOC with the county recorder’s office as they would with any mortgage to put the general public on notice that they have an interest in the property. This secures their place in line at a foreclosure proceeding. The public records do not contain information on how much of this money has been borrowed or spent. Since the description of this property says it is subject to bank approval, it certainly appears as if the bank has loaned the money and does not believe they will get it back.
Portland, Oregon always seems to be a bit behind the times. One of our builders, Buena Vista Homes, is finally going to the auction block w/ his unsold homes. Just curious how your auctions have been going?!?! Do other builders tend to follow suit. Have the flood gates opened?
http://www.redcpublicsale.com/auction_details.php?auctionID=D-007
The swim-up bar is kind of weird. Makes me think of the recent Jack in the Box commercial (San Diego market). That thing grosses me out.
Anyway, you guys always seem to find properties with some major defect(s).
Also, how can all the renters on this blog with 6 figure incomes not save enough for downpayments? It sounds like everyone is an expert investor at something…
You are all a bunch of Communists! How dare you suggest that buyers actually have a financial interest in their own home by way of making a substantial down payment. And how dare you suggest that buyers have to REALLY be able to make the payments for the long term. Debt and housing speculation are an American right, and for you to suggest otherwise is pure….pure….pure…something! Oh, “responsible” is the word for which I was looking.
Next thing you Commies are gonna suggest is that buyers have to actually document their assets and income.
“Anyway, you guys always seem to find properties with some major defect(s).”
That’s Irvine and Real Estate in general. Look through the MLS, most have something. That fact that people aren’t looking over any blems, not just major blems, tells you how the psychology has changed.
Show us the non-blemished properties on the MLS and maybe we can track them to see how they do. Or maybe we can slice through a zip code since most of Irvine barely had more than ten sales last month to see how blems free the properties were and how they did?
I also make quite a bit of money. I won’t say how much, but it’s not insignificant.
I also have a wife and 2 kids at home. Money grubbers.
If I hadn’t bought a house in 1999 when I did, we would be completely locked out. Savings outside of 401K and IRAs is nonexistent. I don’t know a single person who saves a penny outside of the tax protected accounts.
After taxes, daily living expenses, gas, healthcare, insurance, food, cars, rent, it’s impossible to save any money. Last year, we’ve been dipping into savings. Ever tried to feed, clothe, and care for 2 young children?
Ever wonder why people in OC wait until they are 37 to have 1 child? Because the weather’s great.
I got lucky when I sold in ’04. I also doubled my money since then in the stock market. Without those 2 absolute strokes of luck, there would be no way to ever buy in the future. EVER. I wonder how normal people without that luck would be ever able to buy?
Send the wife back to work and put the kids in daycare.
Oh, well, we can live with less. Material things are not important. that includes houses. Gotta keep it all in perspective.
Chuck Ponzi
Banks are actually still allowing 95% LTV on purchases one loan with loan amounts up to 650k. On this home, if the borrower put down 95k and borrowed 650k, he would pay about $4,500 a month is principle and interest, $775.00 in taxes, $120.00 in insurance and $220.00 in mortgage insurance. Total mtg payment is $5,615 and that’s with putting $95,000 down. You must be crazy to buy a home right now!
What’s interesting on this property is that the husband Quitclaimed the house to the wife in July 2007 and then the wife filed a Homestead in October 2007. This is all public record via the web. Found the name of the homeowner at http://www.411.com reverse address search, the searched the Orange County Recorder’s office.
That’s a good point-regarding RE in general.
I’ll try to find some and post back.
Now, here’s a place that actually looks like it might be worth close to the asking price.
For one thing, those look like truly custom cabinets in the kitchen, which is much better appointed and designed that what I usually see here.
As I am sitting out here in the Midwest, I don’t know how the nabe rates relative to other Irvine ‘hoods. How DOES it rate, Irvine insiders?
If this house were to sell for under $700K, that would mean we are in the fiercist housing bear market in history.
Prices on SF houses in the City of Chicago are still in dreamland. Any 80-year-old house that literally has not been touched since 1959 or so but has 1800 sq ft or more thinks it’s worth $700K.
I’m waiting for the real rout in housing. I haven’t yet seen enough rollbacks. I don’t smell desperation yet.
Aren’t you actually accusing them of being Dirty Capitalists?
Communists would be for giving everything away to everyone for free, rather like the 100% financing we used to have.
agree with punky, I know many people who make good incomes, 100k and above who dont have a penny or minimal amounts in savings, the ones who make much more than that are fewer in number and most of them stuck in a mcPOS home.
while prices may fall in the US, I think Irvine and the OC is in for a very rough landing.
most of IHBers were right about predicting prices falling, but as I watch prices come down fast, it is getting kind of scary and concerning.
I wonder if psychology gets so bad that even savers hesitate to buy in the next few years. just a thought. 🙂
There is no incentive to save in this country. Tax breaks are given to those who invest in retirement accounts or lose money, not to those who are working to put down 20%.
Moreover, with the housing prices skyrocketing over the past years, savings rates could never keep pace with housing prices. You’d eat ramen for a year to save up that 20% for your starter home and then find out that that 20% now just represented 10% or even lower. Then you’d eat ramen some more, etc. etc.
But why eat ramen when your friends who financed @ 100% were eating steak everynight with their HELOC cash?
This home is in College Park, which is one of the entry level neighborhoods in Irvine. This is vintage Irvine, not up to the standards of Turtle Rock, but above, say, The Willows. The school is midpack in IUSD (not stellar, but decent) with a relatively high density of ESL (English as a Second Language) students. Anecdotally, I know at least two parents that send their kids to private schools and live in this immediate area (Harvard Square and CP) and did so after a thorough review of the school with intentions to send their children there.
Most of the homes have been updated, but there are a number of GLARING exceptions that have not. Therein lies the rub – the homes are hit or miss and the neighborhood is lacking the sophistication you would expect/demand for $700k or $5500 per month.
Again, no principles… oh but that is the principal that has value!
It actually one word:
“caesarstone”.
Check out http://www.caesarstoneus.com/index_ad.cfm?CFID=2410198&CFTOKEN=57125573
We got in our house, but we don’t feel very “augustus” about it. Mostly we used “plebeian” cleaners when we make a spill.
The price is definitely “patrician” though. But the product is quite stout so you don’t have to employ “praetorian guard” methods to keep it looking good.
Mostly it’s a “vini, vidi cleani” type of material. Strongly recommended.
Et tu Brutus? it is not.
I’ll be surprised if that many people could save up for that type of down payment.
This is a transitional part of Irvine. It was built when Irvine offered high end ( Turtle Rock ), middle end ( Woodbridge, NorthWood ) and entry level ( Walnut, The Ranch ).
Of course, I must qualify that from the very beginning Irvine was upmarket from the rest of the county ( Seal Beach, Newport and Laguna excepted). From inception, Irvine’s SFHs were a conceived as a “move up” market. From ’68 through ’98. Only the crazy concept of cheap money and 100LTV loans allowed people to move into Irvine SFH’s as a “first home”.
Anyhow, these homes are not spectacularly fancy but reasonable homes. They are nice inside and outside and have larger yards than those in my neighborhood, Turtle Rock.
However, they are on the flats and lack geographical interest. Think very small lots in Iowa for a second here. These homes are close to the railroad tracks.
Also, there are a zillion ethnic Chinese there. This is good and bad.
Overall I think this place is much nicer than Northpark or any of those newfangled, tightly packed, cheaply built and crazily overpriced homes on the East Side of the Santa Ana Fwy.
IMHO, this home needs to drop to $225 to $250 per square foot. Which is also where I think Northpark and Walnut Square need to be as well.
So, this home is about 20% overvalued still.
Northpark and the others…. are screwed. But we already knew that.
Oh, btw- the pool is not necessarily an asset. It looks like there’s no yard left so where will the kids play?
In no time at all, it will be 2008, meaning four years of recession in price-years and opportunity. Time marches on.
Tonye, I know you have shared this debate with others on this board, but bottom line is there are many buyers don’t want a yard and like the ‘common area’ concept (or sacrifice yard for new-ness). I think NP will do fine; mid- to upper-pack relative to the values in Irvine, mainly because they were built at the very start of the bubble. Quail Hill and Woodbury are the places I would say are at risk. Sorry the geography isn’t as convenient.
Exactly who thinks that a house in Irvine built in 1974 is move-up material? In another town, you could hide that shame.
An interesting clue to the future. In 1989, sold for $350k. in 1999, sold for $370k. In 10 years, only $20k equity, not including selling costs.
Quitclaim…hmmmm. Many reasons for such a thing (divorce, inherit property with several other relatives, etc.) but my guesses of why it may have happened here:
– He has bad credit and needed his name off title during her attempt to re-fi.
– He didn’t want his credit dinged during the upcoming foreclosure.
Homestead…hmmmm. http://homesteadus.com/ great website to get a quick overview of just what homesteading is…and might I quote,
“Our goal is to inform every homeowner in America the importance of having a Homestead Declaration filed BEFORE a judgment is filed against their home. A recorded claim by you that this is your homestead and as such, is not subject to liens, attachments, judgments, or creditors”….
Based on these actions, I’m guessing they have known a foreclosure was coming for some time now… IR, when did you say they took that HELOC out ? If it was anywhere near the time of the quitclaim, I’d say they were taking whatever equity they had out before they lost it. In my eyes, that would be outright fraud…..
Great sleuthing cathyp !!!
Sadly, there is the recent example of Argentina, where it took only ten years to wipe out a very large middle class. Otherwise, I would say it would be imposssible to wipe out the middle class. Sadder still, we are doing exactly the same things that the government of Argentina did, including massive debt and wars of economic distraction.
So 2009….we should be at $390,000. I guess we will have to find out.
Gosh, you have a homestead equivalent in California? I thought Fla and Tx were unique in having immunity from liens & judgts.
There are always knife-catchers and those who don’t care about the price. Though few in number, they provide whatever transactions occur during the drop.
Then you want a condo or townhouse.
The idea of a single FAMILY home is that you want your kids and perhaps a dog to roam around ( just keep that poop out of the way).
Also, that strip of green does feel good in those hot evenings. Go out there, put up a few chairs, light up a cigar and get the BBQ going.
My concern with NP is it’s cost. It’s extreme.
Maybe the US should invade The Falklands ( Maldivas to Los Peronistas).
yeah, what kid in Irvine actually plays outside? They are too busy with piano lessons and studying for the SAT at age 5. Either that or the kid spends all day long at day care because both parents work from 7AM-9PM
I dunno know about the flats, but nannies are very common in my part of town.
We had a nanny/housekeeper for eons because it was cheaper than paying for day care and she drove the kids around to piano, guitar and after hours lessons.
Once they became teenagers we let her go. But in reality I miss the work she did around the house.
I’m in the industry as a mortgage broker and I’m optimistic that when this finally shakes out there will be some positive changes.
I agree that current prices are unsustainable and will drop significantly. I believe we will return to sane underwriting, and down payments will be required.
I believe, however that the entry level, or kickoff buyer, will have some sort of low/no down-payment program. When the market finally finds that affordability sweet spot, the risk managers will give the nod to the creditworthy first time buyers. The old model worked because the next level could use the equity derived from principle payoff, and inflationary rises in value, to fund the 20-40% required on the next rung up the ladder. We have some serious hurdles ahead, and I don’t think the turnaround is anytime soon. The brutal fact is that the practices of the last 7 years have brought on a disaster that will affect us all, owners and renters alike. I too am looking forward to the day that regular working people can buy a house without having to lie on an application.
The neighborhood of College Park is an eyesore in my opinion. Architecture is ugly, many homes are rundown, and the facilities need some serious updating.
Took my kid to a Halloween party there a few weeks back and decided during my drive through that I would never buy a place there no matter how cheap they got… For older areas of Irvine, Northwood and Woodbridge are much more desirable.
The elementary school is decent but not spectacular. They did get a CA Distinguished school award fairly recently I think. The junior high is old, decent, but not great. I also know families that live in the area (Harvard Square) and they think College Park is a fine elementary school.
I think Tonye just doesn’t get the appeal of NP. Many people, myself included, like that area quite a bit. Nice use of open space, good location in terms of distance from freeways, nice amenities, etc. One of the houses I was watching there, 19 Sunnyvale, just went into escrow. Nice floorplan, 2,850 sf, and it went to escrow for just a smidge over $1M. $352 per sf isn’t exactly “getting screwed”. Those owners made over $400K since 2001, or greater than a 75% return. Values in NP have held up very nicely as compared to other Irvine area…
you did good.. now that you’ve made money, your wife doesn’t have to work 🙂
My kids play outside every day… They head to one of the neighborhood parks with the nanny. There are entire nanny/kid/park subcultures out there that we parents can only hope to comprehend!
I actually liked this house from the two pictures that were posted here. If I thought the market was right (near bottom or just back on the upswing), I would take a look at this one.
Love the screen name JanitorTom!
Myself and a few of the people I work with save 10% (with a $10k a year cap) of our paychecks in stock purchase programs (15% stock discount, a pretty damn good deal). Other than us, I don’t know ANYONE who saves outside of a tax sheltered account either. I have almost $100k for a down payment now… but now I’d much rather let that generate income for me than waste it on a house. Times they are a-changin’.
And update your damn blog already Chuck 🙂
You have good taste, caesarstone makes for beautiful surfaces.
Preaching to the choir…
Luckily I am an engineer working for the G, so I believe I am somewhat safe in the coming recession/depression? Thus far, I have been maxing out my 401k at the IRS max, throwing everything I make into ING (lazy man plan) because I am too chicken for the stock market (I dont know how bad the stock market is going to tank and when, yes I am a downer). The only money that doesnt go into ING is rent/food/gas, and wants such as cell phone, car payment, and $100/mo for fastfood/splurges. Going to open up a ROTH soon too (after I do the research, I dont trust suzanne).
I have saved up about a years worth of my salary for a house, but I am waiting out the housing apocalypse to find the rent=PITI point to buy. All my coworkers call me a doom and gloomer, but rightly so, ever since I found this site and hbb I know what to expect. Even the old fools that I work with who lived through the past bubbles keep saying to buy, saying that in 10 years I will make money (isnt this housing market the worst ever). I say why buy when I can rent for 1/2 the PITI? I am not throwing money away renting, I would be throwing money away buying now and possibly having to sell for less in the near future (because of a new job opportunity?). I think I am saving about 400/mo onto my house fund.
The next bubble is… the stock market? (again), now how to make money off the same old fools chasing easy money.
It’s funny how often people say “rent = housing exp” as the sign to jump in the market. I have to admit that as a multiple property owner/investor, I did not believe I’ll see that day during my life time again. But I just bought 5 properties and they are already “proposed rent = purcahse price x 6% + monthly property tax+ HOA fee+ insurance”
And I have used the lowest comps to come up with proposed rent, and the 6% interest was loan rate quoted on fixed 30 years mortgage with 0 point. I do plan to put 20% down, but I did not want to include that in calculation as it will effect the analysis, and I do not include monthly principal payment on loan, as it is kind like a saving paid towards paying off the mortgage.
And, what kind of homes could I buy with that kind of money. Those homes are newer homes built in 1996, 2000, 2005 in Inland Empire cities no more than 50 miles from OC. (where my home is)
Am I thrilled with the bargins. No. I am very sad to see how people’s life saving disappear infront of their eyes. I can see how people lost the one thing they thought they can rely on to retire. And unless Government do something to stop this, the society will collapse right in front of our eyes.
Then, why do I buy? Well I believe I probably won’t get a loan soon depsite my excellent credit (790) and 20% down. I also image inflation growing out of control and the only protection is a fixed rate mortgage.
The homes range from around 1550sf to 3100sf. And the per sqft price is from $65/sf (built in 2000) to $130 (built in 2000, 1570sf) None of those are run down, actually one was brand new (2005 but never lived in) in gated community with a ton of upgrades.
Life is no fairtale, can be a horror story if nothing is done. One of the home has 1999 price roll back. But in 1999, people are making 40% less in pay. Take that into consideration, and you have a 20 year roll back.
Anyone who thought they can’t afford to live in Southern CA should make your move here soon. If Federal government really does something, the prices will be no more.
Well, we too have been maximizing our 401Ks and my wife has been buying stock in her company as well ( I do so within my 401K ).
It’s really the only way to save nowadays, otherwise we’d be falling into the 38%/33% tax bracket ( plus 9% for CA ) so I’d rather carry a balance on my VISA at 13% and save 47% on my taxes ( plus the company match!!!).
Just make sure you’re careful where the money is invested. A lot of those “safe” investments are loaded with CDOs. We’re invested in international, large and mid cap growth. I’m avoiding the “money market” funds as they are royally screwed with CDOs and CMOs.
However, can you take money out of a 401K and use it as downpayment on a house?
Gratia Plena Genios
The ceasertone matches the marble statues of my wife and I in a classic pose with laurel leaves about our temples and fine patrician togas. In my hands I hold a pile of aureii and dinarii. MY wife holds a scroll that proclaims our good fortune and ultimate taste. 😉
Gloriam Antonio Augustus
True. I forgot about the association parks. We have an additional park for the the tennis courts, pools, basketball courts and large lawn areas.
And you are right. The nannies have a definite pecking order. Ours was the Alpha nanny.
She was an older lady with a nursing background in Mexico, legal papers, driver’s license and she drove our kids around in our always brand new Honda Odyssey. Some of the other nannies drove around in junker vans. I just don’t understand why parents would not want to provide their nanny and kids with a car that had ABS, airbags, etc…..
Tonye,
Why did you have a nanny? Did your lifestyle require your wife’s income, or did your wife not want to stay home with the kids?
When our first was born, my wife, who is degreed and had a well-paying corporate marketing job, expressed her desire to stay at home with our child. We cranked down our budget and did it. I remember many mornings leaving for work and they were still asleep. That gave me a priceless sense of having prioritized my child’s well-being over our desire to generate more income. Luckily my job rocketed and things have worked. out. The little one was reading at 3 1/2 and is on the path to a black belt.
Almost all of my friends married professional women. All of them had nannies or daycare because the women didn’t want to stay home. Interestingly they’ve all adjusted their lifestyles to utilize the extra income, and now seem somewhat dependent on it. I observe most of the children who stayed with nannies are emotionally or intellectually behind my child although they are all uniformly 1-2 yrs older. Sounds like you had a great nanny experience. You were lucky.
I’m always curious about the situation behind a nanny when I hear about it.
My wife and I both have degrees and have professional lives. We define ourselves not by our family but by work AND family.
My friend’s who have wives at home all share a common problem: After a long day at work, they come home and their tired wife will handle the kids to them.
OTOH, my wife and I when we come home tired we could related to each other. And we shared the duties of taking care of the kids.
In my experience this worked out much better and we never had problems, plus we helped each other dumping our work stress because we relate to each other much better.
Our kids actually were better. They learnt to socialize early in day care and then we put them in pre kindergaten even we already had a nanny for them. They developed communication and interpersonal skills and never showed egotism. Plus they are very outgoing as well.
In my opinion, raising kids in the privacy and seclusion of home in NOT good. It’s far better to expose the kids to others within a learning environment as soon as possible.
Is it cheap? Hell no. In fact it might have been cheaper to have my wife or I stay at home and take of them.
Indeed, many of neighbors are in a similar boat. This is not a financial decisioin at all, but a lifestyle decision. It’s very hard to toss a career overboard.
Of course, this also means that both husband and wife have to pitch in. I do a very good job of cooking and cleaning, for example. My wife does the bills and takes the kids to the doctor.
Tonye,
Interesting feedback. So your wife did not want to stay home, correct? This matches what I saw with my friends. I think my wife was somewhat unique in that regard, though one of the mid-level execs at my company has a wife who made that decision at the end of her residency and never practiced. Can you imagine goign through med school + internship and residency to never practice as an MD? He said she didn’t want her kids raised by a stranger.
I agree on the socialization. The earliest we could put our child into pre-K was 3. We wer lucky that my wife had a few other stay at home moms on our street, and they all hung out together with the kids. Getting into pre-K was definitely a big move, though, as our child definitely grew through the increased demands of interacting appropriately with 20 kids vs 4.
Regarding the evening hand-off, I guess I just got lucky. I have my dream job, and usually come home invigorated to see my family and engage with them. I’m also fairly chauvinistic, so I enjoy being the patriarch of the household. In fact, my wife usually goes out of her way to make me feel like a “king”. I love coming home to a smiling family, a cold beer, dinner cooking and a bounty of things to talk about amongst ourselves.
We had to find a new pre-K because my child was the only one reading in the current school (and it wasn’t cheap). Now I’m learning just how expensive elite private schools are. Up here in the Bay area there are many to chose from. I have my eye on Harker, which is ~$35K/yr. Kind of like a west coast version of Philips Exeter. We live in one of the nicest towns in Silicon Valley, with a very sought after school district with APIs well above Irvine, but the gap between even the best public schools and elite private schools is huge.
I do hope my wife goes back to work eventually. I think it’s important for stay at home Moms to have some sort of identity beyond the home, and as the children grow up this becomes more important (IMO).
Heck, when you break it down on an hourly basis, my teacher wife probably makes more than I do, within pretty much guaranteed raises and a decent pension. She loves teaching way too much to give it up completely. No way she was going to quit working for the long haul… 15 months off with the first, only 3 months off after the second, that’s it.
Like Tonye, we found using a nanny to be a rather expensive lifestyle vs. financial choice. My 3.5 year old does two full days of preschool, even with a $500/week nanny here at the house. Next year, we’ll push him up to three full days and our spend on daycare will get up to almost $32K (after-tax). School is a treat for him and he gets a lot out of it. Worth every penny…
Hey Boston, I don’t want to come off like an ass, but your kid is 3 and a friggin’ half. Subjecting the poor kid to the discipline of advanced martial arts at that age, along with what must be countless hours of daily drilling on letters/words is not at all impressive. It’s kind of sad to tell you the truth. They are kids. They only get to be kids once… Plopping him into a high pressure private school with all the other stressed out kids that are being driven hard by their parents from birth is just going to end that childhood even sooner.
Personally, I am proudest that my son is happy, fun-loving, super social, and relatively stress-free. He’s got the rest of his life to be challenged/stressed/worried, so I figure I’ll let him really enjoy his first five…
You don’t come off as an ass. I appreicate your feedback. Like I said above, I am always curious about the nanny when I hear of it.
Life is competition. I think we all do our kids a great service if we get them used to that early. It so happens that my wife and I greatly value education, and our child is tall for his age with great coordination, and we have a great martial arts studio up here that has a long history teaching young children. My kid loves going to class.
We’ve read a book at bedtime since prior to 1 year old. Now we read a book and he reads a book. We also found that the Leapfrog products were awesome. We didn’t do any drilling of words and numbers; we just put that word factory deal on the frig and the kid went at it, with full cognition of the alphabet at 2. That’s when the light went on for me that kids brains are like a sponge, and you need to keep that sponge wet. This actually reinforced our decision to have my wife stay home. As for the private school, I wouldn’t be looking into it if my kid wasn’t an avid learner. He also seems to thoroughly enjoy competition of any kind, so we’re going to roll the dice and see if he responds to stepping it up another notch.
I wish my wife had the passion for her career that your wives have for theirs. She made great money. She just wanted nothing more than to be a stay at home Mom. I had to get used to it, but now I’m thankful she pushed the issue.
You bet I don’t get NP at all. I see no reason other than greed why NP should run at prices near parity with TR. IMHO, NP will reach parity with NorthWood within two years.
Besides, the weather out there is awful: Hot, Cold and Smoggy. I’ll take the Marine Layer and our June Gloom any day just so that we can avoid winter frost and running the AC all the time for four months in the summer.
And then there’s the location. Good luck living out there.
I definitely agree that you need to keep the brains (and body)fed with the kids… If your son is a natural, then I can better see continuning to challenge him with growth opportunities. Having that extend to paying a college tuition for preschool is a little excessive IMHO, but some people do it.
If these things are his choices, that is way better than 90% of the other parents that are pushing their kids into lessons, sports, academics at too early an age to make the competitive” and primed for future success. I spent my early years playing outside all day with no preschool and a mom that barely spoke English. That didn’t stop me from being able to do Algebra in sixth grade, getting a high SAT score, and pretty much getting in to any college I wanted. So many smart, successful, and professional parents today forget that they didn’t have preschool or other structured learning activities when they were little. Somehow they managed to succeed and be competitive…
We did the letter deal on the fridge too and I think it definitely helps. My son had his alphabet down since around 2.5 and that Word Whammer thing has been there since his birth. Frankly I was more happy when he was fully potty trained then when he was able to do his alphabet!
This property is actually in my neighborhood. The price IS ridiculous and I have no idea what they were all thinking when they re-did the pool. It looks like its all cobbled together. That looks like a very expensive idea that really didnt pan out.
I would like to point out some of the hidden features of this neighborhood for anyone interested when prices finally adjust. The College Park neighborhood has only 3 entrances, so crime has been fairly low since we’ve lived here (15 yrs). Association dues are about 40 bucks a month – that includes three pools and a clubhouse. The greens and the school are taken care of by the city/IUSD. There is a community elementary school right in the middle of the division. there are NO MELLO ROOS taxes here.
On the downside: most people have had issues with the faulty plumbing that was original and had to replace things after water pipe breaks in the wall etc. The water pressure can be very high – so get it checked b/f you purchase. Termite problems are in most units. The HOA board is horrid – the new members have raised our HOA fees several times, ran a cost-overrun on refurbishing the pool (which they chose to do DURING THE SUMMER WHICH RENDERED THE POOL USELESS TO THE COMMUNITY), there are very limited colors for the homes that the board demands be repainted, the new board is hassling and fining homeowners like no other board before. They are idiots and meddlers. Once the first lawsuit is filed against them as individuals – I expect the nonsense to stop.
Several members of the board were also in charge of the community’s swim team and through mismanagement and complete incompetence managed to drop the swim team from its regular rankings of 1, 2 or 3 place (2006 season the team was in second place) to an astounding crash out of 9th place in points.
Swim team league is pretty big in Irvine for folks who have families. there are about 20-22 teams in the summer league. Some Irvine communities do not have a local team, so they have to scramble to one of the city pools. Most teams are full each summer and competition to get into a team can be tough. fyi